Rename Jumps section to indicate Track along with Urban, plus address a curious word in the existing text
Comments about this discussion:
Started
The current Jumps section of the rulebook puts the two "Track"-related jumps in a section labeled Urban. While urban-type unicycles are most used for these events, they are also traditionally included as part of Track competitions, at least in Germany, a major unicycling country. There is already an ongoing discussion about possible name changes for the Jump events, this one is about a rename of the Jumps section in the Rulebook.
Current name is "Urban: Jumps". I propose one of two renames: 1: "Jumps, Urban and Track" or 2: "Jumps" Those make a choice between removing a category label, or adding one for Track, as a reminder that these events can be held at the Track venue.
Origin of High Jump and Long Jump (on Track): These were first held in the mid-90s at USA National Unicycle Meets (approximately 1995). The idea then was to add some traditional "Field" events, like Athletics Track & Field. At that time, no Trials unicycles existed so people mostly used the same unicycles they used for the track. Trials unicycles came later, along with Trials culture and an expansion of what was "possible" to do with unicycles, without breaking them.
The end result of this discussion may also affect, or be influenced by, one or more of the other proposals for the Jumps section. We will pay attention to that.
The additional part of this discussion is to clear up what is meant in this passage of the existing Rulebook:
"13C.1.1 Jump Director The Jump Director is the head organizer and administrator of jump events. With the Convention Host, the Jump Director determines the course, obtains **permis**, interfaces with the community, and determines the system used to run the event."
Because the word in question is part of the Jump Director description, it appears to be meant to refer to "permission". I don't know if that statement is necessary. It might relate to permission to do these activities on a costly rubberized or tartan track surface, in which case it should be fleshed out to be clear that venue owners should be aware of the types of activities that might be held on such specialized surfaces, to prevent problems down the road.
Please offer your opinions on this, as well as on possible renames of the individual Jumps events as they will effect each other.
Comment
About the name of the chapter:
Currently all chapter names start with a main category such as "Mountain Unicycling", "Freestyle" or "Urban" , followed (when appropriate) by a subcategory such as "Jumps". In this case we're talking about "Urban: Jumps".
To stay consistent with this style of names, I suggest a variation on your option 1, namely "Urban/Track: Jumps". Although now having a link to Track, the chapter can stay in the same location (currently Chapter 13).
As to "permis":
I'm also not sure what is meant, looks like a typo. If it is indeed "permission" and has to do with e.g. damage-prone surfaces, I don't think we need to prescribe who is charged with obtaining such permission. It could also easily be the head organiser who feels he is in charge here, especially because he is probably locally based, whereas the Jump Director may only travel near the beginning of the event, particularly in the case of Unicon.
So my idea would be to simply delete "obtains permis, " . (Note that the deletion would include the comma and the following space.)
Comment
About the name of the chapter / discipline group:
The reason why we migrated the jumps events under the Urban disciplines from the Track disciplines was because nearly all competitors in these events were Urban riders, and from an organizer point of view it makes everything a lot easier, and if the event flow is better that is better for the riders too. I think having basically only urban riders competing in these events already verifies moving them, but there is more. Now it is easier for these events to have an Event Director who is from an Urban background, and therefore to manage the event from choosing and/or accepting the location, choosing the right equipment to setting up the courses according to the real requirements of these events. The requirements that support the vast majority of competitors in these events.
Another big advantage was that the athletic stadium is often located further away from the Unicon Event Centre, where usually most of the Urban events happen. Since Unicons are now shorter, the schedules are more packed as well, so to potentially making High and Long Jump competitors to commute to the athletic stadium exclusively to attend these events (Prelims plus potentially Finals too) while they can be held anywhere else (like in Grenoble too, they were all organized at the Event Centre) is once again not optimal I think.
And this is the reason why I would prefer not to add Track to the name of these events or their category. Because they do not need to be held on an athletic track, and John mentioned in the other discussion about the naming of these events (Discussion 90), we just potentially create confusion as he suggested. So why add a name to these events if we just make things more unclear?
Like I mentioned in Discussion 90, I completely understand John's point about the traditional aspect to keep these disciplines somewhat close to athletics, as that was the initial concept of these events back then. I am forever thankful for the pioneers of unicycling (including both of you John and Klaas and of course many others) for laying down the first steps for something amazing what we call unicycling today - for instance, Unicycle High Jump. However I think there are better ways to honour this tradition than tying the names of these events to "track". I think we have to respect the way how our sport is evolving, and I think our job here in the Committee is to support these improvements, and guide them if necessary according to what serves the sport and the riders better and of course what is efficient.
I think it is not an exaggeration to state that nearly 100% of riders entering the jump competitions (whether athletic or trials style) are urban riders.
Our sport is great enough that we don't need to copy athletic disciplines strictly, but have our very own versions that work better for our riders' needs and represent the sport better. I get that it is a nice concept to have a full range of athletic style events in unicycling, but I would never sacrifice what is the best for the sport just for the sake of this concept. For instance, there is one-foot riding and wheel walk in unicycling, while there is obviously no one foot running in athletics. Also, there is pole-vault or hurdles race in unicycling. What I am trying to say is that unicycling does not need to be a copy of athletics, and we should not sacrifice the sport's needs for this concept. We can of course get inspiration from athletics, but we shouldn't structure our sport in a way that doesn't serve the athletes to attain this concept.
High and Long Jump events do not need to be held on an athletic track, that is a fact. They have been held on concrete / asphalt at least at Unicon 17, 18 and 20 and it worked completely fine.
In my opinion, and I like to believe that this is how most urban riders think (who once again make up the vast majority of starting competitors at these events), High Jump over Bar, Long Jump on Track, High Jump onto Platform and Long Jump on Platform all go beautifully together in one group, because they are all different forms of the biggest jumps. I think this is a very logical and proper grouping of these events, plus experience shows that organizer wisely too it is better to keep these events together.
All in all, I really like the Jumps section as it is. Very clear, logical, coherent and serves the riders' needs plus efficiency. I prefer not to change the naming of these events or categories.
As to "permis":
I am pretty sure too that's a typo, well done finding it. I think it is fine if the Event Director takes care of this together with the Convention Host
Comment
Correction: Also, there is no* pole-vault or hurdles race in unicycling.
One more thing in addition: I am not against of having these events on an athletic track, if the possibility is there and it works properly for the riders. But I wouldn't require having them on track as it isn't at the moment either.
Comment
> The reason why we migrated the jumps events under the Urban disciplines from the Track disciplines was because nearly all competitors in these events were Urban riders
That is/was also my impression. But this discussion was largely started because of a comment from Jan Vocke from Germany in the Track committee. He wrote that in Germany, the demographic of the two Jumps styles is different, with the Track jumps also having a large participant group of Track riders, and they are in Germany actually done on an athletics track.
I can agree with not adding "Track" to the name of the Jumps chapter. That said, if we would have "Track" in the name of the chapter, that doesn't imply that Long Jump on Track must be held on an athletics track. For one thing, the title does not contain any rule, it's just a title. And also, "track" does not exclusively refer to "athletics track". If the runup and the last part to the finish line are done between two lines, that is also some form of track, which can be laid out on any suitable surface.
> I think it is fine if the Event Director takes care of this together with the Convention Host
Would you then also agree to simply delete "obtains permis ,"?
> But I wouldn't require having them on track as it isn't at the moment either.
None of us wants to require this, so we all agree there.
Comment
May I ask what was that comment? I am quite interested :) I quickly checked the Track sub-committee to see if I can maybe find the discussion, but I was surprised to see how many discussions there are so I decided not to start checking them one by one.
That is great if riders who are more oriented on track than urban start in these jumps - I was not aware that this was the situation in Germany, however this doesn't change the fact that on an international level - like at Unicons the vast majority of riders are urban riders (or even Muni, for Long Jump on Track...). And even then, track riders are totally free and more than welcome to join these events there too, if it is not held on an athletic track and whatever it is called :)
If we add track to the name of these events we are just constructing requirements / expectations that aren't necessary in my opinion.
>As to "premis":
I would either delete it or correct it to permission I think. You are right that is more of the duty of the Convention Host / Main Director as they should be aware of the local situation and regulations, but the Jumps Director is the person who knows what's required for their events.
Comment
> May I ask what was that comment?
It was actually not a single comment, but several comments. They were in Discussion 5, if you want to read them in context. Just some quotes:
Jan Vocke: Long jump on track (and high jump over bar) have been Track disciplines for years - in long jump on track the track is even in the name. Both disciplines are almost exclusively organized at track events, here in Germany they are organized at almost every track event, with the exception of some one-day events where there is not enough time for them. Both disciplines come from the track sector and are rather unsuitable for typical urban competitions ( floor, space conditions, etc.) - I don't really see any good reasons to assign the disciplines to the urban sector.
Jan Vocke: at our track competitions a lot of riders take part in the jump disciplines. And even if many riders are interested in both the "Urban Jumps" and the "Track Jumps", it makes no sense to me to sort the disciplines according to the interest of the riders. I think the sorting should be done according to the area where the competitions are held - and the "Urban Jumps" are held on "Urban events" and the "Track Jumps" on "Track events".
Jan Vocke: With the exception of Unicon, I don't know of any event where the "Track Jumps" were ever held together with the other "Urban Jumps" - and even there, the "Track Jumps" were usually held on the track.
In Germany the "Track Jumps" are exclusively offered at Track Events. At Urban Events (EUC, Summer EUC, etc.) almost exclusively the two "Urban Jumps" are offered, but not the "Track Jumps". I see a very clear separation of these two jump categories.
Jan Vocke: The only German member of the jumps committee is Ian Dylewski and he is only familiar with urban disciplines, so he has probably never been to a track competition in Germany and therefore does not know how often the "track jumps" are offered and how great the popularity is among track riders for these disciplines in Germany.
Jan Vocke: The current problem is that some people are not aware that there are relevant things for a track competition in an Urban chapter. When the change was made some yeas ago, some people wondered why the jumps were dropped, because they simply didn't look for them in an urban chapter. Maybe it would be enough to call the chapter "Urban/Track: Jumps" to make clear that it is not a pure Urban discipline that is described there.
For the organizers of track competitions, the division still makes it difficult, because the structure is very much oriented on the Unicon, where there is a "Jump Director" who only takes care of the jumps. But of course there is no such thing at any other competition. In any other track championship, the track director and the referee are also responsible for the jumps.
Jan Vocke: I admit that the statement is perhaps a bit exaggerated - of course I don't know all the competitions that are held around the world.
But for Germany, it is definitely true that the "Track Jumps" are held exclusively at Track events and it is of course an additional task for the organizers to have to consider the structures for the Jumps separately in the existing structures for the Track competition. The old structure, where the jumps were in the track chapter, was easier for the organizers.
Me again: please note that this was not a single piece of prose by Jan, but a series of responses in a conversation. Look up Discussion 5 to see it in full glory.
Comment
> I would either delete it or correct it to permission I think. You are right that is more of the duty of the Convention Host / Main Director as they should be aware of the local situation and regulations, but the Jumps Director is the person who knows what's required for their events.
I would rather delete it. If it is corrected to permission, the Jumps Director is charged with the permission issue. It seems better to let the organiser/host decide who (singular or plural) arranges the necessary permission. Correcting "permis" to "permission" leaves no freedom for such a decision - it would be against the rules to involve the convention Host..
Comment
I will work my way up the comment list in reverse order to avoid repeating things:
> "These are Urban events"
It has been explained how the Jumps are not strictly for an Urban audience, so I believe we must take that into account of how we handle the jumping events as a group. Possibly by just labeling that section "Jumps", but also by keeping in mind that some people run them at Track competitions. Historically, the High and Long Jumps were Track events, but bear in mind that Urban events did not exist yet. To me, it makes sense to hold them all at the same venue due to the equipment used, but to not require anything along those lines. In fact, I note that Urban riders may have ignored the High and Long Jumps, to some extent, because they were labeled as Track events. That's unfortunate.
> "Premis"
I'm with Klaas; we don't need that sentence if it refers to getting permission for the venue, as that will most likely not be handled by the people who run the actual competition there.
> "there is no* pole-vault or hurdles race in unicycling"
I refer you to the venerable "Things not to do" page. No, they're not there, but just as a reminder that unicyclists will try anything, and some things will get turned into competitions. I know hurdles has been tried, and pole-vault has been talked about. Okay, end of that topic.
> What category to put these events under?
For now, I'm going to suggest just calling it "Jumps". Anyone who wants to know why the change was made can look it up here, as the full story takes a while to explain. I consider the Jumps to be mostly in the Urban realm, but don't want to step on the toes of the German championship because it represents a very large group of unicyclists. Or we can mention this at the top of the Jumps section, that the older Jumps events have traditionally been held at some Track competitions.
I could also request to move the Jumps section up the list, but don't want to open up a can of worms about which things should be higher or lower on the list, so I won't.
What do you guys think?
Comment
> What do you guys think?
I agree to all of that.
Comment
Do we agree to leave the names unchanged?
Comment
> Do we agree to leave the names unchanged?
That's a separate proposal. We'll see if Mark has any comment and go from there.
Should it be separate? Probably. If we do a separate proposal for name/category change it should be easier for people to make meaningful suggestions. Should I post this as a proposal? Of course the explanation can accompany that proposal. :-)
Comment
Thanks Klaas for copying in the relevant comments.
I started reading through discussion 5 to understand the context too, but I couldn't dedicate enough time to read through the entire discussion yet.
However I was not aware of this perspective until now, so it is great this came up.
There are parts that I agree with from Jan's comments and there are parts that I don't. I will not write in detail about that as he couldn't reply in this discussion.
> What category to put these events under?
What I am sure is that this whole topic of where the Jumps belong and how do we call the chapter deserves a proper discussion including more people, not just the 3 of us who already commented on this discussion. It would be necessary to hear more voices and perspectives to fully understand this and make a decision which serves our sport best in most ways. If that's still possible, it would be great to have that discussion in this Rulebook Committee. That would require Jan to be added to the Jumps subcommittee and to have an active discussion with as many members taking part as possible.
I understand Jan's concern about putting all Jumps events under urban, so I can imagine that calling the chapter just "Jumps" could be a direction to go.
I still need to clear my thoughts on this to have a clear view. I am planning to get back on this topic.
> "Premis"
Let's go ahead with deleting it.
> "there is no* pole-vault or hurdles race in unicycling"
I remember visiting this page about 17 years ago :) It was nice to revisit it :))
Comment
>I understand Jan's concern about putting all Jumps events under urban, so I can imagine that calling the chapter just "Jumps" could be a direction to go.
>I still need to clear my thoughts on this to have a clear view. I am planning to get back on this topic.
Mark, are you still planning on getting back on this topic?
I would support a proposal to change the chapter name from "Urban: Jumps" to just "Jumps", and leave it at that, without starting a lengthy discussion with lots of people.
But I would agree that collecting all views from all "stakeholders" and see where that leads, is a justifyable and proper way to go. It just takes more time...
Comment
My current position on this is that I will propose to change the title of this section to "Jumps", as to not assign it to another category. And also to delete the "Premis" word.
Any comments/suggestions on this?
Comment
I would vote Agree.