14B.4 Number of players
Comments about this discussion:
Started
I think it would be good to add a few small things to this rule and split it at least into two rules. I put my thoughts in sections that correspond to those I suggest.
Team /Number of players
The rules say how many players are on the rink but do not state how large a team can be (including substitution players). Should we limit this to e.g. 12?
Then we have the rule that a teams needs at least 3 players to start the match. This rule is questionable in my opinion as 3 is a small number and the time playing this match would be rather spent for a match between teams that have enough (at least 5) players. And last the rules don‘t say what happens if a team doesn‘t have enough players. I think this team should loose that match forfeit.
Substitutions
Here, the rules are missing a few things:
What happens if a team has too many players on the rink or does a wrong substitution? In my opinion the team should get a 2min penalty box (as in many other hockey variants).
Then, the followup question is which player is sent off the field? Here I would again introduce the same rule as in other hockey variants which is the player entering the playing field the last.
Can a substitution happen in any corner or at any place? Maybe it would be better to limit this to the teams own half? However, O don‘t have a strong opinion about this.
Comment
Theoretically there should be a limit but I don't think I have a good suggestion for what that number is. Australia is never likely to have a team of over 7 that could compete against the best nations, so a team of over 8 seems huge to me. But that is a small team for Swiss.
I have no issue with the 3 players playing a match rule. 3 top swiss or german players would be competitive against many teams. In Australia 98% of courts are one basketball court in size so 3 or 4 players are quite effective here.
I would only bother bringing the minimum team numbe rup to 5 if we found that many tournaments were having too many teams because people were making teams of 3 people instead of teams of 5. A team should lose hte match if they have too few players.
2 min penalty box works for infringement of too many men on field. The last person to enter the field that creates the higher number is penalised.
I thought we brought in a substitution clarification that talked about location of substitutions. I will check the rule book again.
Comment
I think both of these clarifications make sense for Unicon. Other leagues can ammend the rules if there are local circumstances to consider.
I also think it makes sense substitutions will need to happen on the teams own side. There's a bit of a question on logistics for when switching sides mid game but I'm sure something can be figured out around that.
Comment
On substitutions:
14B.8.1 General Considerations: . To keep the game going, rule violations that do not influence the course of the game should not be penalized.
I believe that for most routine substitutions, the flow of the game would not be significantly affected, especially if the game is already dormant. Therefore, I would generally not penalize it if there are momentarily too many players on the field. What are your thoughts on this?
Comment
Why would you want to limit the maximum number of players per team? Normally as soon as you have ten players available you would split a team into two teams so everyone can play rather than be a substitute. But why not have several lines of players like in ice hockey which quickly substitute since it is not limited?
Regarding too many players: In 14B.9.5 Penalty Box there is already a 2 minute penalty listed for "Intentionally having too many players on the field". Recently i refereed a game where one team had six players in game for about half a minute before I (and probably they) realised that. I think I only gave a free shot to the opposing team.
Player substitutions should take place on the teams own half, i thought this would already be in the rules, but it is not?! We should add that!
Comment
I think it's good to have a maximum number of players and I think the number should be 10 as you can then split the team. I see two problems with having too many players:
- With more players you could have some players play the initial games and some players join when the knockout phase is reached. I think that would be a shame and it kind of goes against the spirit and the sense of community
- Some of the games are long and fatigue can be a factor in deciding who's winning. If you have a team of 15 playing a team of 7 the bigger team would have an incentive to just try to fatigue the smaller team, knowing they basically only have to each play a third of the game.
I think the second point is really important, since it could lead to a lot fewer teams participating if teams just grow to have more players instead. For instance the German teams took 2nd and 3rd last year, but maybe they could have won if they had combined so they would have fresh players throughout. Then the Swiss might do the same and suddenly you have very little tournament left.
Comment
Maximum number of players
Having a maximum number allows some level of consistency or fairness for all teams. As far as I am aware every team sport has a maximum number of players and sometimes a maximum number of interchanges.
Ice hockey has a maximum number of players that can take part in a match which means that a team cannot put on a fresh player every minute for an entire match while the opposition gets more exhausted as the game progresses.
E.g. If we were at UNICON and a finals match was a club team e.g. Bakau (7 players) vs a national team (Swiss 1 and 2 combined into one team of 18 players) then Bakau may have to play a 40 minute match with 7 players and would have players playing 3 x more minutes and being more tired. This is an extreme example but the reason why a maximum number of players is in every team sport rulebook I know of.
I think we have 3 options for maximum number of players.
No maximum number of players on a team
OR
Maximum of 10 players on a team
OR
Maximum of (?) players on a team
Current rules for substitutions
14B.4 Number Of Players
...Player substitutions are possible at any time with the substituting player entering the field at the same location only after the other has completely left it. It is not necessary to indicate substitutions to the referee.
14B.8.1 General Considerations
...To keep the game going, rule violations that do not influence the course of the game should not be penalized.
In the last rulebook we added the wording that the substituted player had to enter the field where the other player had left it. Prior to this you could take a player off in attack and put a player on at the opposite end of the field to place a player closer to the ball in a very short time. At the time no one felt strongly about adding a specific location for interchange as with the new change no position advantage could be gained from the interchange.
It looks like people are split on whether to penalise incorrect substitutions (and how harshly).
Ice hockey has a severe 2 min penalty but have a very relaxed interchange rule compared to ours. The player entering the field in a substitution can enter if the player they are substituting with is within 1.5m of the bench and neither player is taking part in play. Therefore the 2 min penalty box is very rarely called in ice hockey matches as teams really need to stuff up the interchange to get penalised.
I think we have 3 options for substitutions?
If we are calling for a similar 2 min penalty to ice hockey then we need to make our interchange more relaxed, closer to ice hockey, where you can be on the court if not taking part in the play.
OR
We can keep to the rule that we have currently "player leaving must leave the field completely before the substitution enters the field" and potentially only give a free shot (or play advantage).
OR
General considerations rule says do not penalise something that does not affect play. So perhaps if play is stopped, no penalty should be called. If play is still going, you give a free shot if a player entered the field early and their early entry allowed them to take part in play earlier altering what would have happened in the game.
Comment
I think we should just keep the substitution rules as they are. There's a bit of discretion but in general the only reason teams will fluff up a substitution is if they operate in bad faith, especially when they need to leave and enter the field the same place.