Battle Scoring
This discussion has an associated proposal but it has not been approved yet.Comments about this discussion:
Started
"judges are not required to write down scores for each category during battles"
- Doesn't this lead to people weighing their own criteria more or less?
- Happy to leave it like this, but just thought it would be a point for discussion.
Comment
Oh this is something that I am always overruling kind of as chief judge. I make it mandatory for judges to use the same scoring system as for prelims, write down scores and determine their winner vote by comparing the final scores.
Which in my case is automatically done with Sheets.
It still determines the winner by finding the one with the most judges votes though, so that's different to prelims.
It is frankly impossible to rule fairly without writing down scores and weighing them accordingly to the percentages in the rulebook. That just cannot be done in your head.
The problem is: if you make judges write down scores you will have to calculate each judges final score for both riders right after each battle. Doing this manually probably takes too long to have a nice event flow. Since I'm using Sheets that will give out the results instantly I can make it mandatory for the judges to use proper written down scoring.
I would strongly suggest to make judges write down scores and weigh the scores for battles whenever possible.
But I don't think we can or should make it mandatory to do so. Flatland as an urban discipline does have a spontaneous spirit to it and I think for smaller events it is not feasable to force using automatic sheets or calculating scores for minutes after each run.
For bigger events though it is an incredible improvement so maybe change the rules to something like:
'judges are not required to write down scores for each category during battle, but it is recommended whenever possible to improve the accuracy of the given scores'
Comment
I think we need something stronger. More like: "Judges need to write down scores for each judging category in battles. For small events with limited technology, it might be possible to use these scores as a reference point without final calculation of total points."
At our last (really small) competition, all our judges wrote down scores in the finals (manual document) - just to see where the riders placed within each category. Ideally the weighting of the categories is given at the top of each judging category. I mean realistically people could even type the scores in a phone calculator and multiply them by the weighting. Freestyle judges did that before they had automatic Excel spreadsheets.
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I like that.
Having them write down scores and if no technology is available have them vote on a winner at least by looking at there scores and knowing the weights of each category.
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I disagree with this and I side with most of what Ian said.
just to see where the riders placed within each category
that defeats the purpose of having a bracket. Why count by point if you're going to have a bracket and battles.
Comment
Because the scoring rules also apply for battles so the two riders should be compared with respect to their performance in the categories.
For example, I could imagine it's easy to get caught up in the atmosphere of a crazy final trick and give that a greater weighting when really it does not have such a big impact on the overall outcome of a battle.
Comment
It doesn't sound like there are many downsides to strongly suggesting that judges have to write down scores in battles, with the main point being better judging. I think especially in the heat of battles, if you're not thinking about all aspects of scoring it could be easy to weight some things more heavily than others, such as a final trick, or just taking into account preferred riding styles/tricks. I have not judged flatland before though, so will defer to folks with more experience on this.
Comment
One thing that's been on my mind is how to appropriately judge good 'battling' when using the official scoring categories.
Good battling for me means the riders reacting to their opponents tricks and trying to do similar tricks but harder to show the judges they are better, instead of both riders just doing random tricks without responding to the other's riding.
This is something I want to see in battles!
For example: if judges went just off their head like they did in the past without writing down scores, they could weigh good battling in.
But the scoring categories don't reflect it. Should there then be a scoring category 'Battling' that reflects that?
Comment
I agree that having the judges writing down scores can lead to better judging as it supports being consistent with judging criteria, and the criteria weights.
Battling criteria
This is an interesting point Ian. I am a bit unsure about it, as sometimes riders can have such different styles - but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to motivate a little bit of rivalry - however I would keep the weight of this "battling" criteria quite low, maybe around 5%, but definitely lower than 10% as I see it now.
Last Trick scores
On another point, just asking around. What do you think of Last Trick scoring? Last Trick makes up 14% of a rider's score, and it is scored on a scale from 0 to 5. I feel that 14% is a significant share from the full score, and having a smaller range is limiting to differentiate tricks well. So in practice I can imagine that sometimes tricks get the same score that shouldn't, just because there aren't enough increments.* We could increase the point range to better reflect the differences on tricks. All other judging criteria is scored from 0 to 10 points, so I think it could make sense unifying this. What do you think?
*Do we accept full point scores or giving decimals is accepted too?
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Battling
I agree that this should have some form of impact.
I wonder whether this could be part of flow in battles as the current definition says: "Score is given for cleanliness and style of rider during the battle/preliminary."
Maybe good style in battle includes "battling"? Just an idea - happy to go with an individual category as well.
On that note, it is worth specifying what good style actually is? Cleanliness, e.g. removing pre-hops and idling makes sense to me. Never quite understood what style actually meant. For example, going for combos rather than just individual tricks? Or is it just another word for expressing cleanliness?
Last trick
I always though last trick should be scored out of 10, like all other categories. It makes it easier for judges to see the impact, especially if the score sheets have the weights on top as a reminder for the battles.
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Writing down scores
Should we create an actual proposal for writing down judging scores?
@Connie, how long is the committee open for?
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I had some feedback from the riders from Belgium on battle scoring.
None of them were keen on introducing a score for "battling" as they believed it would take away from the freedom of doing the tricks they liked. They also pointed out that riding styles become more diverse and that it would be really hard to judge.
I think I agree with them.
Comment
Let's keep this out of it then this time. I might try it at some lower level events just to test how riders react to it and if it makes battling more interesting instead of just seeing the riders prelim runs again, split into smaller parts.
We should strongly recommend writing down scores in battles a thing then and I would also suggest to change the voting for last trick 0-10 to make life easier for judges. Marie, you will need to submit this proposal, since you started the discussion.
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I don't know why but the proposal I made was not approved. Who is in charge of this?